Pricing

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Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
Hi everyone,

First of all, I want to thank all of you for your continued support for Active4D. Hard to believe, but it’s been over 14 years since Active4D 1.0 was released!

Recently I reduced the pricing on Active4D with the hope it would increase sales and renewals, but it doesn’t seem to have made much of a difference. I haven’t made it public on the 4D Tech list yet, but before I do I would like your opinion as to whether price is even a factor in your purchasing/renewing decisions.

Naturally I’d like to change more, but in the 4D world I’m kind of cheap right now. Thoughts?

Many thanks,

  - Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
> Naturally I’d like to change more, but in the 4D world I’m kind of cheap right now. Thoughts?

I forgot to mention, one reason I bring this up is I still need to fund ongoing development. For example, the 64-bit OS X Server needs to be supported.

Many thanks,

  - Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Oliver Brodwolf-2
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
Hello Aparajita

Active4D is priceless (in German= unbezahlbar!) , and Your talent and your work is priceless.
So, for me the most important thing is, that you don't stop do be a developer, and that you support Active4D in the future.
The pricing has for me not first priority. The Old Price was OK…
I don't know much about the 4D community and how important for other developer is a scripting language like Active4D.
Maybe we should all show our projects and products,  we do with Active4D. With a description, some pictures, and links to the real products.
Maybe the 4D community should be able to see our applications.

This is my one and only project. And it is 1000% Active4D / 4D
http://www.jungfrauzeitung.ch/ <http://www.jungfrauzeitung.ch/>

The same for iPhone / iPad.
https://itunes.apple.com/ch/app/jungfrau-zeitung/id473700621 <https://itunes.apple.com/ch/app/jungfrau-zeitung/id473700621>

And in the next month the same for Android and mobile.
I think, the Active4D Website should show all of these projects.

Regards, Oliver



> Am 10.04.2015 um 01:18 schrieb Aparajita Fishman <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> First of all, I want to thank all of you for your continued support for Active4D. Hard to believe, but it’s been over 14 years since Active4D 1.0 was released!
>
> Recently I reduced the pricing on Active4D with the hope it would increase sales and renewals, but it doesn’t seem to have made much of a difference. I haven’t made it public on the 4D Tech list yet, but before I do I would like your opinion as to whether price is even a factor in your purchasing/renewing decisions.
>
> Naturally I’d like to change more, but in the 4D world I’m kind of cheap right now. Thoughts?
>
> Many thanks,
>
>  - Aparajita
>
> _______________________________________________
> Active4D-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://list.aparajitaworld.com/listinfo/active4d-dev
> Archives: http://active4d-nabble.aparajitaworld.com/

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Re: Pricing

Mike Vogt-2
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
Aparajita,
I agree with Oliver. Active4D is the most essential tool I use to keep our online business up to date.  I think pricing is quite a bit below its value. I want to echo Oliver in saying that we need you to continue its ongoing development.

IIRC, you were going to enhance your fusebox demo and charge for it as a training tool and a number of us responded.  I'd still pay for it!

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aparajita Fishman
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 7:20 PM
To: Active4D Developer Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Active4d-dev] Pricing

> Naturally I’d like to change more, but in the 4D world I’m kind of cheap right now. Thoughts?

I forgot to mention, one reason I bring this up is I still need to fund ongoing development. For example, the 64-bit OS X Server needs to be supported.

Many thanks,

  - Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

William Swann
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
Dear Aparajita,

For my part, you need to adjust the pricing in a manner that keeps the Active4D available. If it weren’t for this outstanding product, several of my projects would never have gotten off the ground. I was not aware that you had reduced the price so dramatically. The original license cost of $700 seemed reasonable to me, especially when compared to $D’s, I mean 4D’s pricing.

That being said, I think you should at minimum return the annual fee for “maintenance” to at least what it was before or even bit more. $70 is nice, but I want you to continue with supporting the product and not have it disappear, so raise the price. Further, you should consider increasing the initial deployment license to cover your costs.

I pay >$5K annually for 4D’s maintenance on specific deployments. I think if I lost Active4D, my costs are going to go up considerably more. It must be difficult for anyone to write libraries for such an orphaned platform. There is no real marketing effort on 4D’s part to increase the market share and the developer pool is growing smaller with each passing year. So if we want to keep Active4D alive, we need to support you.

As to the 64 bit OS X server, you asked in the past if we would be willing to contribute additional money for 64 bit Windows development, people responded positively. I am sure there are many of us that would contribute to help you out, as a community. BTW, I would contribute.

It is an incredible product.

Thank you Aparajita,

-Bill


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Re: Pricing

Michael Larue-2
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
Friday, April 10, 2015 at 2:21:59 AM

Hi Aparajita,

Me too. I agree you should price this accordingly so that product support will continue and you can enjoy those month-long vacations on a beach in the Caribbean. :-) If you lowered the price and didn't increase sales, then that only hurt yourself.

Sure, I like a bargain (who doesn't?), but again, the MOST critical factor for me is that the product continues to be supported. If the price is too low to do this, then definitely raise it. I (and I'm sure many others) would be stuck way up S creek without a paddle if a4d ever went away or didn't run with current versions of 4D.

(I hope my clients don't see this... :-)

Keep up the great work--a4d is really a superb product, created by a true programming master.

Cheers!

Michael Larue

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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
Hi all,

Thank you for your kind words of support.

So let it be written, so let it be done. The former pricing (as far as I can remember) has been reinstated. Those who bought in the last few months are lucky!  :-)

Many thanks,

   Aparajita
   www.aparajitaworld.com

   "If you dare to fail, you are bound to succeed."
   - Sri Chinmoy   |   www.srichinmoy.org

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Re: Pricing

William Swann
Dear Aparajita,

Great! Please let the community know if support is needed to help this product continue. It’s by far the best option available for 4D, it is an elegant solution that keeps many of us employed. I may not speak for all of us, but I appreciate your efforts since QuickCode Pro.

Again many thanks!

Bill


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Re: Pricing

Peter Jakobsson-2
I agree with everything that’s been said on here except for 1 thing:

• it would be nice to have an ultra-cheap deployment options for small applications

For example, the other day I needed to do something that I really should have done in Active4D but used ECWID instead. The expected revenue (initially at least) was so low that I couldn’t justify the outlay (although I was basing that on the old price - $700 cos I didn’t realised you’d reduced it).

Then there’s other stuff - like building html reports in 4D or small utility web based applications for office use.

The thing is, there’s a huge spectrum of economic viability with a product like this. For an eCommerce site turning over $1-2 million a year, $700 is peanuts. On the other hand, for a small utility application that’s non-revenue, $700 is “think twice about it” levels.

ArealistPro have a kind of “bucket shop” option of $40 or something for a single runtime license tied to a particular 4D runtime which you have to give them the serial number of. Obviously you need some protection that it doesn’t get deployed beyond its intended market and the best one I can think of for a web platform like Active4D is a “low performance” (LP) version.

************ Active4D Light ************

If you limited it to 4-8 web processes and a service ceiling of requests-per-second than that would make it undeployable for serious eCommerce but absolutely deployable for small utilities.

Just a thought.

Peter


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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
> ************ Active4D Light ************
>
> If you limited it to 4-8 web processes and a service ceiling of requests-per-second than that would make it undeployable for serious eCommerce but absolutely deployable for small utilities.
>
> Just a thought.

I’ll look into it.

Regards,

  Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Justin Will
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
I recently purchased a copy under the lower pricing.  I was pleasantly
surprised it had been lowered.  When I realized that the entry point had
been lowered I almost immediately thought about some opportunities
available for deployment that had previously not been justifiable.

While, I think the value of A4D is more than the lower cost, I also think
that if the larger 4D audience realized the price had been lowered it might
drive some new sales and renewals.  I have several customers using A4D and
I recommend it to everyone I work with in a consulting capacity if they are
looking to hook up a website to their system.  With that said, I had no
idea the pricing had been changed until I was purchasing a new license a
week or two ago and I follow this list with regularity.

So, with that in mind how could an increase in volume be realized for the
price change if nobody knew the price of admission had been lowered?  With
the lower pricing I had 2-3 more licenses I was thinking about purchasing
between now and June-ish timeline that were just for some real low usage
stuff I wanted to put a web front-end to.  If the price just went back up I
suspect we'll just stick with 4D standalone because the price/usage doesn't
make sense.

I for one would tout A4D on the NUG again of you announced lower pricing
there.  I have tried all sorts of 4D and non-4d based web tools over the
years including 4D web tags, Lightning, Wakanda, NTK custom Webserver,  
WS4D, WS4D source, NTK with footrunner, 4D Flex and I still recommend A4D
and prefer it far above the rest.

Just my $0.02

Thanks
Justin Will
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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
> With
> the lower pricing I had 2-3 more licenses I was thinking about purchasing
> between now and June-ish timeline that were just for some real low usage
> stuff I wanted to put a web front-end to.

I’ll look into making a cheaper version with limited traffic.

Regards,

  Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Todd Freese
I completely agree with having two versions. Like a Pro and non-Pro versions.

I have 2 apps that run our company. Active4D plays a major part in these apps, and is worth every penny. It is VERY important to me that Active4D thrives for you because we NEED Active4D. Honestly, we would pay more if it made a difference in the future of the product. It’s that important.

But there are times, when I would love to use Active4D for small one-off or small projects where the cost is an issue and we use another solution. 4D falls into this category as well.


Todd Freese
The Filmworkers Club


> On Apr 10, 2015, at 5:29 PM, Aparajita Fishman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> With
>> the lower pricing I had 2-3 more licenses I was thinking about purchasing
>> between now and June-ish timeline that were just for some real low usage
>> stuff I wanted to put a web front-end to.
>
> I’ll look into making a cheaper version with limited traffic.
>
> Regards,
>
>  Aparajita
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
> But there are times, when I would love to use Active4D for small one-off or small projects where the cost is an issue and we use another solution. 4D falls into this category as well.

So what kind of request volume do the small projects use and what kind of price are you looking for?

Regards,

  Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Peter Jakobsson-2

On 11 Apr 2015, at 19:46, Aparajita Fishman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So what kind of request volume do the small projects use and what kind of price are you looking for?


Do it by remote IP address.

The volume is generated by many slow requests rather than few rapid ones so limit the audience to 5 distinct addresses per minute or something like that.

What that will do is make it out of the question for eCommerce applications (it’s Russian roulette for them) but very attractive for in house utilities, non-commercial deployments and experimental adopters. It will take a minute to generate a report anyway.

Sub $50 or other price that people don’t have to “think twice” about. (Many would not agree with me - make it $100 if you like ;)  Depends on what people’s view of a “think twice’ threshold is.)

Whatever the price, the strategy of that policy is that everybody gets a great deal:

[1] - the big commercial vendors get ultra-cheap scaleability (which is what they want).
[2] - developers and early adopters get ultra-cheap functionality  (which is what they want), properly licensed and deployable = no 8-hour "glass slipper”.

Peter

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Re: Pricing

Justin Will
In reply to this post by Aparajita Fishman
I like Peter's IP limit idea,  that might be a pretty good solution.

Thanks
Justin Will


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Re: Pricing

Aparajita Fishman
In reply to this post by Peter Jakobsson-2
> Sub $50 or other price that people don’t have to “think twice” about. (Many would not agree with me - make it $100 if you like ;)

Too cheap. It would have to be $70-$100.

Regards,

  Aparajita

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Re: Pricing

Peter Jakobsson-2

On 12 Apr 2015, at 21:38, Aparajita Fishman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Too cheap. It would have to be $70-$100.

No problem.

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Re: Pricing

David Ringsmuth-3
I also like Peter's suggestion:

Do it by remote IP address.

The volume is generated by many slow requests rather than few rapid ones so
limit the audience to 5 distinct addresses per minute or something like
that.

I think most of my clients would want to stay as they are, but the idea that
we could use Active4D for application <= 5 Remote IP addresses / minute for
$70 - $100 - this is a good suggestion!

Quite honestly, I'm not sure how much more business it will generate
immediately, but it does make the option very attractive for the smaller new
sites.

David Ringsmuth

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter
Jakobsson
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 2:46 PM
To: Active4D Developer Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Active4d-dev] Pricing


On 12 Apr 2015, at 21:38, Aparajita Fishman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Too cheap. It would have to be $70-$100.

No problem.

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Re: Pricing

Sig Pam
I believe using a remote address is not at such a good idea. It's a (probably) easy-to-implement idea, but it has some drawbacks: It's easy to tweak this by hiding A4D behind a (software) load balancer or reverse proxy. The latter one is exactly what I do - for security reason.

I'd think about some kind of "licence cookie" on the client.

Example: A4D could be licensed to "10 seats", where each seat has a short-term (let's say, one hour) cookie set. The server could keep track which license cookies are valid at a given time, issue new ones if there are cookie slots left, or deny the connection with a "license violation error" if a cookieless clients enters the field and the server already knows about 10 active browsers.

If a client tries to tweak this by removing the cookie, he'd be a "new user" and receives a new cookie, using another license. I belive that this cookie-based licensing is flexible and not so easy to tweak, but I might be wrong.

 

 Sig



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